I recently had the opportunity to speak with the founding committee members and first NC State Bar board certified specialists in employment law. Grant Osborne, the committee chair, practices at Ward and Smith in Raleigh and has been practicing employment and labor law for more than 30 years. Will Oden practices at Ward and Smith in Wilmington and has practiced employment law for over two decades in both federal and state courts at the trial and appellate levels. Nicole Patino practices in Asheboro at the Law Offices of L. Nicole Patino as a labor and employment attorney who advocates for both public and private sector clients. Ken Gray practices at Ward and Smith in New Bern and has been an attorney for more than 30 years, advising clients in various areas of employment-related litigation. Andy McVey is an attorney at Murchison, Taylor & Gibson PLLC in Wilmington, where he practices complex commercial litigation and employment law. Each member was instrumental in the development of the employment law specialty certification now offered by the NC State Bar Board of Legal Specialization. They shared their insights into the development of employment law certification, its value, and their passion for practicing employment law.

Q: How do you think employment law certification in NC will benefit the public?

Grant: By enabling members of the public to identify, with relatively little effort, practitioners who, based on objective measurement, have the skills and experience needed when confronting legal matters in the complex field of employment law.

Ken: Our offices receive approximately ten to 15 cold calls a week regarding employment-related issues. I serve as the gatekeeper after staff has conducted a conflicts check and obtained the basic facts. Due to conflicts, location, and various other factors, I refer the majority of those inquiries elsewhere. It is often challenging to match the caller with an appropriate employment lawyer based on their circumstances. Having a list of employment law specialists will help the public and other lawyers like me identify capable lawyers who can help those in need.

Q: How do you think your certification in employment law will benefit your clients?

Grant: In two ways: First, by ensuring that I remain competent in the field due to mandatory CLE and continued practice in Employment Law, and second by assuring clients that they have retained a lawyer who knows what he’s doing and takes pride in his competence in the field.

Will: My personal certification, along with my role as the co-vice chair of the Employment Law Specialty Committee of the Board of Legal Specialization for the North Carolina State Bar (which established and now offers board certification in employment law in North Carolina), will benefit the clients I work with because both encourage me to continue sharpening my skills.

Ken: While I believe my clients generally recognize my experience in employment law, either by reputation or by the advice I deliver, I’ve noticed an uptick in perceived credibility from third parties, such as mediators and opposing counsel I haven’t worked with before. They acknowledge my specialization (because it’s in my signature block) and seem more deferential, or at least less likely to articulate unreasonable legal theories.

Q: Are there any hot topics in employment law right now?

Grant: Sure. Whether DEI programs violate “fair employment practice” laws, covenants not to compete with employers, and the increasing efforts of labor unions to represent more employees.

Nicole: Employment law seems to be its own hot topic frequently. Although there have been many challenges since 2020, I think the constant changes have required employment attorneys to take a leading role in addressing new and changing laws, rules, and actions taken by employers and the government. This has been rapid, and our response has been in real time, which only reinforces how essential our field and roles are.

Andy: We are seeing an increasing number of matters involving the intersection of employer drug-testing policies and N.C. Gen. Stat. § 95-28.2, the lawful use of a lawful product statute, particularly as it relates to the use of hemp-derived products. The enforcement of restrictive covenants has also reemerged as a perennial hot topic since the Federal Trade Commission’s Final Rule regarding non-competes was enjoined.

Q: How do you stay current in your field?

Grant: I never assume I know offhand the answer to an esoteric legal question or a question that implicates ever-evolving judicial or administrative decisions. I always double-check to ensure that I’m providing sound legal advice. Measure twice, cut once. And continual targeted CLE.

Will: My day-to-day practice focuses on employment law. I attend relevant continuing legal education programs, read and write articles, prepare and present at our law firm’s annual Employment Law Symposium, and participate in other legal human resources-focused organizations. I also remain active with and attend programming through the North Carolina Bar Association’s Labor and Employment Law Section.

Ken: I skim the employment-related sections of JD Supra each morning, and that medium does a decent job of covering the hot topics in employment law generally. Also, whenever a significant employment decision comes down, one member of our labor and employment (L&E) team at our firm will bring it to the rest of the team’s attention. We then roundtable it and determine how it will affect our clients. With six members of our L&E team being employment law specialists, we have lively discussions and usually come to a consensus (and the correct answer) on how we should advise clients going forward.

Q: How is certification important to this practice area?

Grant: It is very important. Few legal fields evolve as quickly as employment law or involve so much federal and state statutory, regulatory, and judge-made law. It is vital to stay current. Certification of employment lawyers is one way to encourage them to do so and give them an opportunity to showcase their proficiency in the field.

Q: What is most rewarding about your work in employment law?

Grant: Working with clients who need our help and knowing that I have the skill and experience to provide competent legal advice and sound judgment.

Will: The most rewarding aspect for me is mentoring younger attorneys to become successful members of our profession and effective mentors and leaders themselves. The natural collaborative nature of the practice of employment law lends itself well to that mentor-mentee relationship.

Nicole: I love the ability to talk to clients, explain options, and discuss the practical realities that may result from the actions they take and the decisions they make. It is really rewarding to follow clients as they move through their careers, leaving employment and starting new jobs, and to work with employers who are actively seeking advice about how to do the right thing for their employees.

Ken: No two days are the same. While we see similar fact patterns, every situation we deal with is unique. I often think that the scenarios I hear would make a great book or movie because some of it would be extremely difficult to make up. I enjoy dealing with difficult employment situations and helping clients get past the emotional aspects of their situation to move forward in a positive manner.

Andy: Most of my work is on the management side. I am gratified whenever I have the opportunity to help an employer avoid a landmine and instead arrive at a result that is both proportionate to the employer’s risk and perceived by the employee as fair and equitable. As much as I enjoy trying cases, arriving at a negotiated result everyone can live with is much more rewarding.

Q: Who are your role models?

Grant: Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, and Winston Churchill. Each was principled, brave, smart, and resourceful.

Will: I have too many to name here, as I am blessed to know many really good people. However, upon reflection, I can say that my role models (professional and personal) typically exhibit most if not all of the following admirable qualities, among others: they are people of faith, work hard and exhibit a growth mindset, are capable of being good teachers and good listeners, have strong intellectual curiosity and a broad range of interests, have a good sense of humor, and are collegial. I would submit that these qualities also constitute many of the same needed to effectively practice employment law.

Andy: On the professional side, my law partner, Michael Murchison. His Superman advocacy skills lurk behind his Clark Kent kind and mild manner. On the personal side, my father, Jim McVey. He loved people and met them where they were. I am delighted whenever anyone compares me to either of these men.

Q: What is one inspirational movie or book that has motivated you in your career?

Grant: From a young age, To Kill a Mockingbird, because Gregory Peck, as a southern lawyer, personified integrity and bravery in the face of small-minded bigotry.

Andy: Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Robert Fisher and William Ury. It’s a quick read, and it was a game-changer for me when I read it as a young lawyer. I stopped seeing negotiations in terms of winning and losing and started seeing them as opportunities for mutual gain.

Q: What would you say to encourage other lawyers to pursue certification?

Grant: You should consider it if you intend to devote your career to employment law. Certification will give you an opportunity to showcase your proficiency in the field, help ensure that you remain proficient, and enable other attorneys to refer matters to you with confidence that you are competent in the field and wish to remain so. Your clients will also take comfort in your certification.

Nicole: Clients no longer question my consultation fee! No, in all seriousness, being a specialist quiets some of the imposter syndrome that may creep in. It also acts as a daily motivator to make sure I am current with case updates, read blogs, attend CLEs and other enrichment activities, and do whatever it takes to make sure I consistently provide specialist-level advice to my clients.